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Obfuscated file names [was Postings::RKS]
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xo
Site Admin


Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 466
Location: Los Angeles [comcast]

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2002 8:24 pm    Post subject: Obfuscated file names [was Postings::RKS] Reply with quote

I'm posting here in response to a thread in the Postings forum. Apparently, due to concerns about being identified for cease & desist letters by media orgs, posters have taken to obfuscating filenames and subject lines. This is pretty common in other movies groups, but I hadn't seen in the anime groups as yet, though apparently it's being done in abav (which I don't get on my primary).

In no way do I wish to question the desire to stay off the legal radar by those posting. It's their ass on the line, so I support their caution. However, it does create a quandary for me and the other maintainers of the animeusenet database. My work flow for maintaining data strictly involves text dumps of subject lines, so obfuscated titles with nfos containing IMDB ids, etc would necessitate a change in how I input this data.

So, I want to throw out a couple of questions: can we as a community bang our heads together and come up with a method that can accomodate both sides? Perhaps some of you frequent other newsgroups that have found a compromise that seems to be working out.

And, how does the role of animeusenet's data fit into the pursuit of obfuscation? Is it endangering things since it's sort of out there in the open? If so, any ideas on how things can be made "safer" for all involved?

--- STD DISCLAIMER - I don't speak for the others, blah blah blah, they probably wish I'd shut up blah, blah, blah ---
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Gorunova



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 318
Location: Burnaby, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2002 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't noticed this trend until someone mentioned it to me yesterday. I think it's alarming and pointless. If a downloader can identify the episode being posted, then so can a law enforcer. Making life difficult for everyone is not going to save you from The Man.

If ADV is using bots to detect infringing posts, then I expect their bots to follow the same growth pattern as spambots that collect email addresses. They will learn to recognize common acronyms, munged names, and will be able to to look up references at IMDB and other locations. If ADV is really serious, they just need to hire one person to become a regular downloader and do the same things the rest of the downloaders do.

I think that animeusenet.org could be seen as a source of evidence, and potentially its database could be siezed as evidence, but there is no guarantee that our data is correct and we do not know the real identities of the poster names we log. I think animeusenet's database is not much better than circumstantial evidence.

As always, your only security on the Internet is through anonymity. If you're posting illegal stuff, you'd better hope your ISP's logs turn over frequently. The logs combined with your message headers are the only concrete way to pin down your real-world identity. Posters need to face reality and decide if they're comfortable with the situation, but at the same time so long as ADV's response is only cease-and-desist letters, you can at least continue until they send you one.

BTW, never accept a legal document by email. There is no way to prove
its authenticity that way.
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Keikai



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 178
Location: Miami, FL

PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2002 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, since these methods are there to increase anonymity, I would, of course, recommend not including poster information in those entries automatically.

Unfortunately, short of those frequent posters like NB sending you reports of what they are posting directly, I'm not sure if I can think of a good solution to the overall problem. For the remainder I suppose you'd have to do it the hard way or ignore the posts. Sad

Perhaps recruit one more person whose job it is specifically to watch for and gather the information about those types of posts? (Not an offer, of course, I have a month late FAQ revision to hammer out! Razz)
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Neuralblastoma



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 109
Location: Ottawa Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorunova wrote:
I hadn't noticed this trend until someone mentioned it to me yesterday. I think it's alarming and pointless. If a downloader can identify the episode being posted, then so can a law enforcer. Making life difficult for everyone is not going to save you from The Man.


Say what you will, but this has been working very well for many posters in other groups for a long time now. Another thing these posters do, is always post through a pay server which hides your I.P. address. If you get x amount of warnings and your account is cancelled, all you've lost is your account with that pay server. No big deal, just get another. Posting through your ISP is very risky though. Your I.P. is likely visible and it's a MUCH bigger hassle to lose your ISP. Most areas only have two high-speed internet serivces AFAIK.

Gorunova wrote:
If ADV is using bots to detect infringing posts, then I expect their bots to follow the same growth pattern as spambots that collect email addresses. They will learn to recognize common acronyms, munged names, and will be able to to look up references at IMDB and other locations.


Such a bot does not seem to exist. Observing posts and reading threads on these matters in other groups over a long while, suggest the MPAA and copyright holder's bots just seach for specific titles and/or keywords.

Gorunova wrote:
BTW, never accept a legal document by email. There is no way to prove its authenticity that way.


Just to be clear, I only got a warning from Easynews. That's all. Here's the little email thread:

At 12:38 AM 5/9/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I just tried posting a message and recieved this:
>
>441 Posting failed (you are not allowed to post!)
>
>What happened? I haven't had any problems before.
>
>My name is **, user ID is **, password is **.
>
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Your posting priviledge was revoked due
> > to posting of copyrighted material on our
> > servers.
> >
> > I have restored your posting priveledge. Make
> > sure you understand and follow our AUP and
> > copyright infringement policies located below.
> > As stated, you account is subject to cancellation
> > for any violation of either policy.
> >
> > http://www.easynews.com/copyright.html
> >
> > http://www.easynews.com/agreement.html
> >
> > EasyNews Support
>
>Hi again,
>
>May I ask specifically what it was that was reported and when?

>>Hello,

>>This is part of the message header posted:

>>AnimeMPEG Spriggan Part 01

>>John,

>>EasyNews Support


xo, as for logging it might be best to just ignore those posts.
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(inc)



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 356
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Errr… I just wish *people* would stop posting binaries with my nick on them....

Just saw a survey that indicated that, as a whole, those who routinely grabbed and burned mp3s tended to buy _more_ music cds then they would have otherwise – more evidence that building fan-base should be the number one priority for the anime studios/distributors, not patrolling Usenet.

I tend to think that munged headers give a false sense of security. Agreeing with Gorunova, if ADV and the rest are serious and if munged stuff becomes prevalent, all it takes is one person leeching from the groups to supply any and all info they can get now as to what is being posted and by who.

The anime industry as a whole sees other channels of distribution as much more of a threat then Usenet – and they are. First is (of course) stuff that can be downloaded straight from the web – it’s just too easy; next are irc and peer to peer sharing, natural resources for teens raised on instant messaging; and last are the news-groups. By their very nature the binary ng’s are a restricted commodity, an archaic, difficult to use methodology that most local ISPs don’t even seem to advertise that they have available for their clients.

(inc)
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user



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(inc) wrote:

Just saw a survey that indicated that, as a whole, those who routinely grabbed and burned mp3s tended to buy _more_ music cds then they would have otherwise – more evidence that building fan-base should be the number one priority for the anime studios/distributors, not patrolling Usenet.


Heh... I think you're preaching to the choir. Wink

Quote:

I tend to think that munged headers give a false sense of security. Agreeing with Gorunova, if ADV and the rest are serious and if munged stuff becomes prevalent, all it takes is one person leeching from the groups to supply any and all info they can get now as to what is being posted and by who.


One possible way to remain anonymous might be to find a mail2news gateway and send your posts through it after going through a few cypherpunk or mixmaster anon. remailers. Dunno if there are any which can handle large binary posts though.

(sorta OT) Does anyone remember anon.penet.fi , back in the day?
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earthdark



Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anon.penet.fi?
mmm, that place where they gave out free email accounts?

As for animeusenet.org, how about not keeping records at all of licensed stuff? Somewhat defeats the purpose as a good portion of the posts fall under this category but I'm not sure what the implications of leaving out the poster info for licensed posts is.
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Gorunova



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 318
Location: Burnaby, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthdark wrote:
As for animeusenet.org, how about not keeping records at all of licensed stuff? Somewhat defeats the purpose as a good portion of the posts fall under this category but I'm not sure what the implications of leaving out the poster info for licensed posts is.


Trouble is knowing what is licensed and what is not. I guess we could set up an ignore list for stuff that is definitely no-go, and have the system automatically filter those entries out. I simply don't have the ability to remember such a detail about every series when I'm doing the logging though.

And then there's the greyish grey area of fansubs of stuff that has been licensed but is not likely to see the light of American day any time soon thanks to butt-slow translation companies.
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Gorunova



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 318
Location: Burnaby, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2002 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(inc) wrote:
Just saw a survey that indicated that, as a whole, those who routinely grabbed and burned mp3s tended to buy _more_ music cds then they would have otherwise – more evidence that building fan-base should be the number one priority for the anime studios/distributors, not patrolling Usenet.


Certainly true for me. A large chunk of my CD collection was bought as a result of hearing the MP3s or dubbing stuff from my friends. When I have the money, the same will start coming true for anime DVDs.
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earthdark



Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorunova wrote:
Trouble is knowing what is licensed and what is not. I guess we could set up an ignore list for stuff that is definitely no-go, and have the system automatically filter those entries out. I simply don't have the ability to remember such a detail about every series when I'm doing the logging though.


I say someone runs a spider on AnimeOnDVD's "licensed" page, processes the info, and use that as the "no no" list.

Gorunova wrote:
And then there's the greyish grey area of fansubs of stuff that has been licensed but is not likely to see the light of American day any time soon thanks to butt-slow translation companies.


At the moment, I believe that ADV and perhaps other companies are going after those who are fansubbing what they have licensed but haven't delivered yet so I would advise against posting info about this as well... that is if AnimeUsenet decides to not list licensed stuff. But I'm not sure if only listing fansubs/raws on AnimeUsenet would impede its usefulness.
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(inc)



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 356
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

user wrote:
Heh... I think you're preaching to the choir. ;)
Hee... I _always_ assume there are some *industry* lurkers around.

(inc)
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Melchior



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 190
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorunova wrote:
(inc) wrote:
Just saw a survey that indicated that, as a whole, those who routinely grabbed and burned mp3s tended to buy _more_ music cds then they would have otherwise ? more evidence that building fan-base should be the number one priority for the anime studios/distributors, not patrolling Usenet.


Certainly true for me. A large chunk of my CD collection was bought as a result of hearing the MP3s or dubbing stuff from my friends. When I have the money, the same will start coming true for anime DVDs.


Same goes here-- well, except that my CD purchases have pretty much dropped into the basement because I've found that I don't really like much of what's coming out on the radio, but that's another matter altogether.

Way back when I was in my 1st year at UBC, Teletoon had an anime block. I happened to catch Macross Plus on it. Then I joined the UBC Anime Club a couple months later when I found out that it existed. Then I found anime websites. At the time I don't think there were any sites that had anime videos online-- well, only a couple... Sites usually had things like video clips or music videos (remember the VIV format?). They got my interest going and then I started buying videos. Then I got a decent summer job and bought a DVD player for my computer, and then I really started buying anime. I got burned a few times with videos that looked good but ended up sucking royally, and that was about when RM files started going up on peoples' websites (including my own, which later became www.japanese-animation.net). Wow, try-before-you-buy! The only problem was that shortly thereafter digital fansubbing came about and quality improved greatly, and I began watching tons of stuff that wasn't out on VHS/DVD yet... Which was also cool because I'm sure that a fair amonut of that stuff won't ever come out on DVD, and I'm happy to have watched it. Oh well-- I've got several series that I'm really wanting to buy as soon as I become cashflow-positive this summer again...
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user



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthdark wrote:
anon.penet.fi?
mmm, that place where they gave out free email accounts?


Yeah, it was a really popular double-blind anon. server. Unfortunately, I believe it was raided once (someone got a court order to obtain the user list) and the owner shut it down.

earthdark wrote:
At the moment, I believe that ADV and perhaps other companies are going after those who are fansubbing what they have licensed but haven't delivered yet so I would advise against posting info about this as well... that is if AnimeUsenet decides to not list licensed stuff. But I'm not sure if only listing fansubs/raws on AnimeUsenet would impede its usefulness.


I'm sort of split on the fansubber ethic of stopping work on a series once it's been licensed, seeing as how some companies take forever to release a series once they license it. I know some groups will heed this and some won't.
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xo
Site Admin


Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 466
Location: Los Angeles [comcast]

PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

user wrote:
Yeah, it was a really popular double-blind anon. server. Unfortunately, I believe it was raided once (someone got a court order to obtain the user list) and the owner shut it down.


If I recall correctly, it was the Scientologists and they're long reach that precipitated the end of that service. I remember there was quite a Usenet hellstorm back when someone posted those secret docs.

More on topic: I'm quite torn about the whole issue for somewhat selfish reasons. While it's technical possibly to do title exclusions as proposed (matt has already set up something similar for posters who wish to remain anonymous), I'm concerned about what that will mean to the database. The database to me is something that has to be an all-or-none thing, else it's of little use. If you can't conduct a search and trust that the results truly reflect the posting history, then I think people will be turned off of it.

Still, I don't want be the smoking gun if someone should land in jail.

How does this idea sound: when posting possibly "tainted" titles, use a different nick, one that is on the animeusenet anonymizer list. This does nothing to protect against bots trawling the newsgroup proper, but it masks against using the database to bust people. Without a true link between that data and what's on Usenet, they should be hard pressed to make a connection that is legally substantial in away.

As for obfuscation in the newsgroups: does rot13 of titles/subject lines seem like something that might work, or do you think ADVs hypothetical bots would evolve to unrot13? Also, are the common newsreaders able to handle rot13 with ease?

-xo
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matt



Joined: 11 Feb 2002
Posts: 34
Location: Cleveland Ohayo

PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2002 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with xo, when we started we agreed not to editorialize the groups, so it would be a reliable log of the activity of the groups. I think it should be a all or nothing record, what if we did log only fansubs, should they be removed from the database once they are licensed? I am curious if ppl think that because they are listed on animeusent that they are in more danger of being caught, do of they think the website is used by the anime industry to catch posters? I have no idea, but this is a community site created to help, if the community thinks it does more harm then good then whats the point of even running it? Also let me take this moment to get on my little soap box and say that I think posting licensed anime is a bad idea in general, but that’s just my opinion, and its obviously not that big of deal to me because I still log it.
Ok, well any ideas on how we could solve this problem would be greatly appreciated.
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