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Grumble... Certain series seem to bring out the worst...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 9:57 am    Post subject: Grumble... Certain series seem to bring out the worst... Reply with quote

...<the worst> in posters. Suddenly RahXephon seems to be entering this catagory.

It does get hard to criticize posters who have been good contributors, but the major problem I'm seeing since I've been back is a large increase in flooding (heh, I think Mel thinks I didn't land hard enough on at least one of them Wink ). What makes it even more annoying, for the most part it seems to be reposts, including entire bin/cues up'd in one session -- I see several of those happened while I was gone.

Oh well, I feel better now...

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(inc)



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 356
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...yes, that was me...

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Gorunova



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 318
Location: Burnaby, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've also noticed a slight increase in the posting of multiple episodes within a single RARset. What a waste that is.
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Melchior



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 190
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, I know that Tofusensei has been around for a while and is a respected member of the groups, but I think that a 3GB post in a single day is inexcusable-- that could easily represent on the order of half a percent of Usenet's volume for that one day! (I remember a year ago seeing stats on Easynews where they said they pulled on average 270GB per day-- I assume that number's probably doubled since) ...It's a heck of a lot of bandwidth for one poster, and given how big the loads are in ABMAR anyway, it's sustantial...

...I think, of course, that we should smack all the flood-posters, since there's really no good excuse to flood-post unless it's something that's *never* been posted before and the poster won't ever have another chance to post the files. Kinda like the v-spam thing-- a couple people v-spamming incites others to do the same; I wonder if it holds true for flood-posters as well (maybe HIWIH posters, even?). (I hope my anti v-spam messages have had some effect-- some days I send out a lot of messages)

Those are my opinions-- I'm not sure how many others share them. ...I've also been in a bit of a bad mood the last few days, which may have affected my responses somewhat-- my car broke down last week, the repair bill's $2800, I'm getting my car back next week. Warning to potential car-buyers: Taurus SHO cars are rare, fun, and powerful, but their rarity makes them ridiculously expensive to repair-- there's an absolutely minimal supply of aftermarket parts for them, leaving you with only the dealer-option. Ford dealers are expensive. I think I'm going to sell it and buy a scooter (or maybe a motorbike).

Later,
-Melchior
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(inc)



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 356
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is my experience that Flooding does *breed* and Tofusensei's was just the start of the current spate. In the last two days I've also posted anti-flooding messages to Starstorm, Johnathan (just a newbie following some other SVCD bin/cue poster's example), Ecchi-kun, and Tenrai for that monster 6G+ RahX post (note he also posted 3 episodes from other series at the same time). At least two others (EvilPropaganda and Portable NAVI) say that they're currently posting "floods", but they are going so slowwww that I haven't said anything to either yet, though EvilPropaganda is getting close.

Generally I think it's just ignorance, but the thing that gets me is at least 3 of these people you'd think would know better -- they've generally been good contributors; we're not talking Stormy or GUTB here.

To me, outside of hentai, floods are the greatest danger to the long-term health and usability of aba/abma/abmar.

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Onakra



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 89
Location: Geldrop, Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the worst part IMO is that almost 65% (estimate, no data collected) of the posts measured over a week are reposts from series posted within the past 6 months.

Reposts of series has increased enormously over the past 3 years in ABA/ABMA. Nowadays complete reposts start again from ep1 when the show is just 10 eps down the line. And that's not to mention that most of those 10 eps already get posted for a few different subbing-groups and a repost or 2/3 because "I was away this weekend so I missed it"...

And this is nothing personal, but how long has VIdiot been continously reposting Ranma 1/2 now? IIRC that's more then 6 months already. I have nothing against Ranma, and I don't mind that people want to see it, but is it really necessary to keep it in a continous repost loop? (And before someone mentions this; yes, I know how to set up filters, thank you).

Some of the reactions to the rahxephon 6+GB post also curl up my toes. The 'Don't try to stop posters from posting good anime' kinda reaction to a fiasco such as this really has me wondering about the population of the groups as of late...

It's getting late here so I should stop before I type any more unnecessary things. oyasumi.
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(inc)



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 356
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and now I've got to say something to Tofusensei again I see. Tiresome it is...

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Melchior



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 190
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an idea, maybe we should write a section in the FAQ dedicated to usenet abuse. In it we could mention spam, v-spam, flooding, HIWIH posts, reposts in ABA/ABMA instead of ABMAR, and the like. Anybody who feels like replying to a flood/HIWIH/whatever could either copy the text straight out of that page of the FAQ or could link to that page of the FAQ directly-- it'd save anybody who replies from having to write and re-write the rationale behind floods being a bad thing...

It's an idea anyway.

Later,
-Melchior
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Gorunova



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 318
Location: Burnaby, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm definitely with Melchior on the FAQ idea. Actually, I'd go a step further and say I wish we could put rules against this kind of abuse in the newsgroup charter. We need a bigger stick to beat these idiots with, and one of the biggest sticks you can get on Usenet is the threat of having someone's account terminated.

Onakra wrote:
Reposts of series has increased enormously over the past 3 years in ABA/ABMA. Nowadays complete reposts start again from ep1 when the show is just 10 eps down the line. And that's not to mention that most of those 10 eps already get posted for a few different subbing-groups and a repost or 2/3 because "I was away this weekend so I missed it"...


I've always thought the majority of downloaders were too impatient. It seems like the old guard who have been around for a few years are more or less content to just let it dribble in as it will, whereas the newbies are in this constant panic rush to gorge themselves on everything they can get as if the oasis is drying up.

Onakra wrote:
And this is nothing personal, but how long has VIdiot been continously reposting Ranma 1/2 now? IIRC that's more then 6 months already. I have nothing against Ranma, and I don't mind that people want to see it, but is it really necessary to keep it in a continous repost loop?


VIDiot isn't in a loop. He's been pretty good about not repeating himself too much - he's simply taken that long to do the whole darn series. He helped me fill in my gaps, and now he's starting to get us some season 7 episodes, so I'm happy.

Onakra wrote:
Some of the reactions to the rahxephon 6+GB post also curl up my toes. The 'Don't try to stop posters from posting good anime' kinda reaction to a fiasco such as this really has me wondering about the population of the groups as of late...


Yeah, morons like that make me feel the need for a little of the old ultra-violence. I feel like the logical reasons for good behavior have been explained over and over and over again. I feel like they should be intuitively obvious even to low intelligence. But I guess Usenet keeps inventing better idiots, and idiots who weren't around last time it was explained.

If only we could force people to read the FAQ and click "I Promise to be Good" before allowing them into the group. Smile
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Orqyman



Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 98
Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2002 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to refrain from commenting on the floods of new series since at best I'd be redundant. No one likes that. I'll just add my voice to the mix condemning flooding, even by age old posters. As expected the inflation rate will always rise given time, however the rate it's currently going up is unproportional. Of course due to the nature of usenet, that's generally the best we do since beyond textual reminders, the next step would be a great leap in the diplomacy scale. Parallels situations in the world when you think about it.

The stuff I post is new in the sense that it's been out for the first time on DVD, and no one else has done a rip of the anime. However, recently, it seems more and more that I'm the one posting a repeat due to the fansub version or whatnot being posted before me. I really have to wonder if the added value of imo quality and general completeness of the work is warranted or are people satisfied with the first version of something they watch. I know from past polls that everyone has mixed feelings on that, but as people's preferences for political parties permutate, so do their opinions.
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Keikai



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 178
Location: Miami, FL

PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2002 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's looking like some rules really do need to be fleshed out. If we can get something hammered out I'll get it in there quickly. My concern is, as always, the need for rules vs. less offensive (but less effective) guidelines. I tend to be a softer touch but if there is a strong concensus from the regulars that's all I need to put in some added rules. This general idea has been discussed in several other threads in the past. It's rather complex to implement and even harder to convince people that we aren't some evil oligarchy. Razz

A section of the FAQ specifically discussing abuse (instead of bits spread all over the place according to its topic) is a very good idea and one that is partially implemented. I'll try to take it further and get everything, including rules and conventions, codified into a single location, easy for Melchiorified pasting. Smile As a matter of fact I always liked SWong's separate post on what not to do. I think after writing that section I'll perhaps also post it seperately. Good idea or bad? Also, what is the history of calling the FAQ unofficial. Technically all FAQs are unofficial and their power is based on being backed by the regulars of a group. Calling it that blatantly, however, might weaken perceptions of its validity. It's minor but might be something to discuss.

As for adjusting the charter, that's a little more complex. You can post a booster control message with new info, but there's really nothing all that official about it. If this is done it needs to be done REALLY carefully and as properly as possible, with data from polls, discussions, etc. Essentially, like any control message, it is an organized plea to news admins. I'm not certain if it'll have all that much added impact though. If a news admin is willing to take action due to charter infringement, he/she'll tend to do the same for FAQ infringement.

I personally think a combination of FAQ adjustment with followup policing (including hard-handed tactics if necessary) is the only really effective way of doing this.

Of course, usually these things seem to run their course. The people who break the conventions tend to come and go. But I agree that some of the above steps should be taken if only to make the great policing work of you folks easier and more effective.
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LaughnCynic



Joined: 16 Jul 2002
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2002 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A section in the FAQ covering all the various things NOT to do with clear and forcefull emphasis certainly can't hurt. It might actually help with those who are willing to listen and take a few miniutes to read the FAQ. Sadly, there will always be tards that simply refuse to be respectfull of others.

I'm a newbie myself and haven't felt comfortable replying to the abusers gently or otherwise. Besides, I see Melchior, inc, and other old timers are usually pretty much ontop of things with polite nudges in the right direction. (It brings a smile to my face to see virtually every v-spam post has a polite Melchior responce attached...) Smile
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Gorunova



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 318
Location: Burnaby, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2002 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that regardless of the strength of the language used in the FAQ or whether it takes the form of "DOs" or "DON'Ts", it is important to explain the reasons why. Reasoned arguments can be pointed to when people think we're just an evil oligarchy trying to impose arbitrary rules.

It's also important to present the other side of the argument and explain why it's wrong.

For example, the frequent newbie complaint about the evil oligarchy trying to restrict the flow of anime - one counterargument is that these rules are designed to maximize the availability of anime for everyone.
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(inc)



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 356
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to note, the floods seem to have abated somewhat for the moment. Besides the personal messages, one general *yell* at the groups on the evils of flooding seemed to have at least some mitigating effect, though no one ever replied to it -- I expected at least one flame. Not that I'm complaining... Smile The one post still "flooding" is going so slow as to meet the criteria of a non-flood.

Next on the agenda might be these SVCD's going up at a disc/day.

(inc)

PS -- Don't puff too many of those Reposts, Orqy... Cool
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check the a.b.p.a FAQ
Guest





PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2002 11:24 am    Post subject: about changing charters... Reply with quote

[oh goody, Lynx gives such a fscked-up input field...]

Changing a charter & getting the new charter
recognised is probably more difficult than
pulling a dinosaur out of a tarpit
or something like that... ;)

Back when I wrote the charter for a.b.m.a ,
anime movie volume wasn't very high (see the stats I gathered for it)
since DVD rips AFAIK didn't exist
back then, most files were smaller than 100MB
and 'home broadband internet' was
in its infancy, so anti-flood "should not"s
in the charter weren't even thought about.
At least it immediately had a charter (now about set in stone Wink ) unlike a.b.a which existed for months before being created (pet pieve)

Marco (a.b.m.a newgrouper, currently only hanging out in a.b.p.a and a.b.s.a , following a URL of this discussion posted in a.b.s.a by Onakra)
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