abma.x-maru.org Forum Index
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile
 Log in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Prohibition of Dragonball and Sailormoon posts in the faq

 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    abma.x-maru.org Forum Index -> Newsgroups Misc
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
(inc)



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 356
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 8:52 am    Post subject: Prohibition of Dragonball and Sailormoon posts in the faq Reply with quote

Well, after being called on the carpet in the ng's for asking for the cessation of a Sailormoon post, I'm wondering what the general feeling here is for the prohibition of Dragonball and Sailormoon posts in aba/abma to be formally included in the faq. I seem to remember Keikai mentioning that it would eventually be added.

(inc)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LaughnCynic



Joined: 16 Jul 2002
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd agree with you that for stuff that has it's own dedicated group like DB, SM, and Tenchi they should be 'Off Topic' in ABA & ABMA. In fact I have always assumed they were off topic and was a bit surprised at the contention over your request. Confused

I see in the FAQ that Melchior and Onakra have already added annotations regarding posting of series with thier own dedicated groups.

http://abma.x-maru.org/faq/annotated/posting.php

I'm not sure what can be done other than to update the FAQ and make them 'official' guidelines.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Keikai



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 178
Location: Miami, FL

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm all for it. It's pretty much been an unwritten rule. And a couple of months ago, Melchior has added a note to the annotated FAQ, it just needs permanent incorporation.

It definately needs to be added. I can make an interim addition if any idiots are giving you flak, inc. Else, it will go in with the next revision.

Also, Onakra's note mentions the ABAT group for TM posts. I'm loathe to "ban" TM posts from AB(M)A since the TM group was not properly chartered. I've always been somewhat anti-ABAT also because it really wasn't a necessary group like DB and SM. (As a matter of fact, even though I'm a Tenchi fan I dont even watch the group, just on the principle! Razz ) So I'd personally rather not "ban" TM posts in the FAQ, but perhaps just mention the other group.

What does everyone think?

(Edit: I notice now that LC mentions most of this in his post, I apparently read inc's post and skipped right to a response. Embarassed )
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LaughnCynic



Joined: 16 Jul 2002
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... I was unaware that ABAT wasn't properly chartered. I guess I might have to revise my opinion on TM posts in ABA/ABMA in that case. To what I don't know. Wink

If ABAT is really widely available on servers then I guess I still think it's the prefered place for TM despite charter issues, though setting that in concrete in the FAQ might not be prudent. A gentle hint would do methinks.

(The only TM I'm interested in really are the [uncensored] OVA's and after watching ABAT for about 8 months I still don't have them all. *sigh* Alas...)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
(inc)



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 356
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like Keikai, I've virtually ignored the tenchi group. I checked earlier today and there is actually a charter listed for abat, though I'll admit to not bothering to read it. But, as the posting of tenchi has never really been in issue in aba/abma, I would prefer it not being grouped with SM/DB in any changes to the faq.

(inc)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Keikai



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 178
Location: Miami, FL

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless something has changed, the control message that was sent for ABAT was not even close to being done right. The only control message that actually has a body is one of the rmgroup form letters. Razz Am I quibbling? Yes. But it does have effects. Newsguy, one of the few news services that still does group additions the "old way", still hasn't added ABAT. [Edit: While inc's reply got me started on this, this isn't, of course, aimed at him. I just thought I'd spill some pent-up frustrations about ABAT. Smile]

Now in it's defense it was proposed at alt.config. Although, IMO Jimbo J's reasons for creating were in opposition with the established reasons for splintering off a new newsgroup. It is supposed to be because there is too much traffic in a group and the subject matter is becoming a burden on the more general-topic group. But this has never been true as long as I've been around AB(M)A with Tenchi material. His justification was "There is no NG dedicated to Tenchi. There are some other anime NGs such as alt.binaries.anime but their scope is too broad and involves mostly other anime." That could be said of every anime except SM & DB. Smile

Furthermore he never actually replied to the comments made against his proposal. Technically, it should also be discussed in the group it is splintering from, in this case ABA. Did this happen? If so, I missed it, which is definately a possibility.

Now I'm not attacking Jimbo J, or at the very least that is not my intention. I'm just trying to explain my personal opinion about why I dont like ABAT being an exclusive Tenchi group. In my honest opinion, it did Tenchi fans in AB(M)A a bit of a disservice.

For those interested, the control messages are here:
ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/control/alt/alt.binaries.anime.tenchi.Z
The alt.config "discussion" is here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=3aa9b6e8.6477529%40news&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26selm%3D3aa9b6e8.6477529%2540news
I put discussion in quotes since it immediately becomes an argument between alt.configgers about people not creating groups correctly. Smile

Lastly, I know many people think the alt.config system is useless. I prefer to think of it as a necessary evil with questionable effectiveness. That said, I still think adhering to it, at least to some degree, is a good thing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gorunova



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 318
Location: Burnaby, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My feeling is that it's a general principle of any hierarchical topic structure like Usenet that content (posts) should always go in the most specific place possible. Therefore, the existence of .tenchi and .sailor-moon means that Tenchi Muyo and Sailor Moon posts belong there, and nowhere else.

I don't strongly object to the occasional stray post, especially if it's something brand new, BUT:

If tolerance for off-topic posts is taken to its logical extreme, everything would be posted everywhere, and there would be no point in having separate newsgroups. This, I think, is the strongest reason for keeping things where they belong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Keikai



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 178
Location: Miami, FL

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2002 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorunova wrote:
My feeling is that it's a general principle of any hierarchical topic structure like Usenet that content (posts) should always go in the most specific place possible.

I couldn't agree more. That is indeed how usenet should work. And it is also why I feel "creating" a newsgroup should be done through some kind of organized procedure.

The inverse version of your "logical extreme" example would be people creating newsgroups for even the smallest topics. That would make the usenet just as untenable as people posting wherever they want.

My argument is that ABAT shouldn't "exist" and should not be taken into account. It is not unusual for groups to be created by a whim. It happens daily. It is up to the server admins and newsgroup regulars to ignore such groups, however, in order to strengthen the hierarchical system that has worked well for a good long time now.

One point, my argument is really not about the fact that ABAT was not chartered correctly, dotting the 'i's and crossing the 't's and all that rot. I really have no idea if the DB or SM groups were chartered properly, and even ABA was not originally. But the justification, the core of an alt.config proposal and the control message itself, is proper according to alt.config guidelines for those two groups, whereas for ABAT is it not.

I counter this by admitting that ABAT has a following and that in itself makes it valid. But I think that the original flaw in its inception, and the fact that it actually reduces the chances of those who like Tenchi Muyo from reaching such materials, and further considering that it doesnt appreciably reduce Tenchi traffic in AB(M)A, which was not heavy to begin with, leads me to lean towards the argument I state above. (Please excuse the lengthy sentence. Embarassed )

Anyways, that is how I see it. Have no doubt that my experiences proposing ABMAR on alt.config scarred me for the foreseeable futue. So, take it as you like. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Melchior



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 190
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you guys already know my opinions here-- SM and DB have had high posting volumes, and it made sense to break them off into their own groups, and at this point, it makes sense to keep them in their own groups, thus helping to somewhat reduce the flow of traffic in AB(M)A.

Tenchi on the other hand has never (AFAIK) been posted at a problematic level, doesn't have quite the same number of dedicated followers as DB/SM, and doesn't have anywhere near as many episodes, so in my opinion I'd say that Tenchi stuff shouldn't have a hard-ban from AB(M)A. Note: I am a Tenchi fan.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Onakra



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 89
Location: Geldrop, Netherlands

PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I do agree that Tenchi never reached 'problematic' levels in ABA/ABMA I still believe that if a group exists for any given subject posts belong there instead of in any more general group. The occasional post in a main group shouldn't be a real problem though.

Moreover if a guideline is added to the FAQ (I hate the word rule in this context) I believe specifying 2 out of 3 in this guideline will cause loss of a bit of it's credibility. Because I would expect discussions to the effect of "Why SM and DB(Z) and not Tenchi? You're just singling out anime you don't want to see." The argument of no proper charter probably doesn't hold much value to most since ABA, and a lot more 'established' groups (like alread mentioned), aren't properly chartered either.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
(inc)



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 356
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With sailormoon, DB and tenchi you basically cover 3 possibilities of relationship to abma:

--sailormoon -- the ng actually predates abma by a few months -- status: active (Easynews w/Agent: 419 joined messages)
--DB -- formation was *encouraged* by users of abma -- status: hyper-active (2003 (aren't you glad they're gone))
--tenchi -- formation occurred without input from abma -- status: semi-active (124)

As Keikai said, some groups have more validity then others -- at some point there has to be a cut-off on which will be acknowledged as *official* groups specific to a given anime and referenced in the faq. And this has to consider not just the above groups, but anything that might arise in the future, say a Ranma ng as an example. Proper charter, acknowledgement by major servers and level of activity would be at least 3 of the considerations. And at some point it might come down to spliting proverbial hairs, as not every rogue group that comes along should be acknowledged.

So to specifics -- where does the tenchi group fit in this? What sets SM and DB apart from tenchi, besides the above, is that they are both very *americanized* where tenchi certainly is not. This, along with the group origins and low level activity would suggest to me that abat not be used as the sole destination for tenchi posts.

Perhaps a third catagory needs to be acknowledged besides *Must Use* (db/sm) and *Ignore* (something like fido7.ru.anime.ranma); some mid-level that might encourage x-posting to an anime-specific group, but not discourage aba/abma posting.

Just food for thought...

(inc)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gorunova



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 318
Location: Burnaby, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keikai wrote:
The inverse version of your "logical extreme" example
would be people creating newsgroups for even the smallest topics.
That would make the usenet just as untenable as people posting
wherever they want.


Good point, but fortunately on that side we have a somewhat arcane
process that must be followed to create a new group, and that acts
as a bit of a firewall. Could be better, for sure.

I certainly think that new groups should only be formed if there
is demand for them, and I think that once formed, they should
be considered the definitive place to post about whatever their
topic is. This, I think, is the happy medium between the two
extremes.

Too bad there's no obscure process that has to be gone through to
post off-topic. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    abma.x-maru.org Forum Index -> Newsgroups Misc All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group