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This week's sturm und drang

 
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xo
Site Admin


Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 466
Location: Los Angeles [comcast]

PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 1:10 am    Post subject: This week's sturm und drang Reply with quote

I'm sure most of you have noted the current flurry of discussion about newsgroup organization and utilization.

As ever, I find it difficult to follow discussions in the groups proper (missed a bunch of it thanks to 1-day retention on my server Mad) so I'm going to fork a couple of topics here.

One - it was mentioned that this forum is not promoted, but was otherwise seen as a good thing. I'm glad for the latter and somewhat chagrined by the former. Outside of a couple of initial announcements, I haven't much else, mostly because my personality is such that self-promotion is difficult for me and I worry about being construed as a purveyor of spam.

Having had this deficiency pointed out though, maybe I should do something more regular, like once a month or week. I would really appreciate some comments on this from you guys and gals. Is it a good idea? How often?

Two - I really like the "nag of the day" initiative inc has undertaken and I hope it pans out. Care to share your list of planned "nags", inc? I'm sure we all have our pet peeves we'd like to see addressed Wink.

Also, I know that you're beta'ing this right now and my guess is that you're manually posting for now. I'd given the idea some thought before, especially to the idea of unattended autoposting, so if there's any help I can provide in that regard, please let me know.

Actually, maybe one of the "nags" can be a direct pointer to this place- I know you already have links in the body of the message but the Subject: is the key for this endeavor, I feel.

-xo
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Melchior



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 190
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I also find it a little difficult to keep track of discussions on the web (I'm glad I caught the topic early, since I've managed to catch most of the messages posted), I'll post my opinions here:

1) I am AGAINST the creation of any more newsgroups without there being a clear *need* for them. Once a newsgroup is created, you can't just say "no, perhaps it was a mistake to change things this way" and have the newsgroup deleted. Once created, assume the newsgroup's there to stay. Without *forcing* people to use it, the new newsgroup will simply become another place to X-post requests and other discussions, and the reason newbies/lurkers will give is simple "my request gets the most exposure this way".

2) I am IN FAVOUR of promoting this webforum to a greater number of people, and I think it would make a perfect subject for (inc)'s NAG messages.

3) I am IN FAVOUR OF clearly defining what is/is-not a repost, for the purpose of making more efficient use of ABA/ABMA/ABMAR.

4) I am AGAINST making requests within the subject lines of binary posts - it makes it next to impossible to use filters.

5) I like the idea behind the NAG messages-- it makes me think a little bit of the messages that ski resorts put on their ski lifts-- every time you approach a lift tower, the tower has a plaque on it with another part of the Skier's Responsibility Code.

I've probably missed out on some of the points from the discussion on the newsgroup, but no matter-- I got my main point acros-- NO NEW NEWSGROUPS!
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(inc)



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 356
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, pointer to abma.d is tonights *nag*. And I really do like the term "NAG" the more I use it --- got to be a 'bit of an edge somewhere and the messages themselves will be my usual kind of stuff -- _not_ a lot of "sturm und drang".

Mel, you can count on your #4 -- and I have a new reason not to do it -- makes filtering in Easynews' web server a real pain.

xo, I'll make a list soon. Right now I just doing what feels appropriate, basicly drawing on the messages I've been posting for years anyway, but I will formalize a rotation. Besides, I keep thinking of new ones....

...more later, when I have some time....

(inc)
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xo
Site Admin


Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 466
Location: Los Angeles [comcast]

PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reckon I'll chime in on the larger issue at hand here since I've stayed out of the discussion in the newsgroups (I'll stick with the format Melchior used cuz I like it)

I FAVOR the discontinuation of the use of alt.binaries.anime as it's currently being used. None of the arguments FOR this make sense to me: I've only heard anecdotal evidence that some fringe servers carry it but not abma, and as far as traffic goes, it's all the same disk (probably) and quota'd together. Hiding behind a "split" to decrease counts is a poor reason to perpetuate its rogue existence - experienced newsadmins know what's going on. I've heard some discussion of alternate usages for aba, but personally, I want it to die altogether. It's rogue- kill it. I know that some of you may disagree and I don't have extreme feelings about it, just that none of the arguments otherwise really convince me.

I am AGAINST the formation of any new groups at this time. abma.d I think is a solution that will not work out well (hopefully I'm not being too biased here Cool ). Since it's in the alt.binaries.* hierarchy, I imagine retention is going to be miserable so it's pointless to people like me on 1-day servers (someone correct me if I am wrong to belive newsadmins lump hierarchies an a high level when it comes to quota'ing disk usage). Also, I think the people causing the biggest problems (newbies and stupid folks) are not going to find/use it anyway. So it doesn't solve much.

I'm AGAINST subject line abuse, more than anyone here I bet. I spend up to 20-30 minutes some days because I have to grapple with these for animeusenet. YOU PUNKS ARE SHORTENING MY LIFE!!!!

whoops, was that aloud? don't mind me, i forgot my medication to-day.

For newsgroup categorization, I read one suggestion that I thought made sense to me:

* If it's a new release, and not raw, post in abma
* If it's a full series repost, and it's been a "reasonable" length of time, post in abma
* If it's raw, post in .raw
* Otherwise, post in repost.

Obviously, this has flaws, but it sounded better than any of the other suggestions to me, and since this will only ever be a suggestion that can never be enforced, I thought the flaws were acceptable. Ideally, I would be GOD of the newsgroup and decide where things should go based on my own personal whim, but since that doesn't appear likely to happen, this was the least obnoxious set of guidelines/suggestions (not rules!).

The only questionable part is the "reasonable" length of time. I would make this a function of newsgroup participant "turnover", so maybe 3 months at the shortest, though I'd personally like it closer to 6 months.

Hmm, now where did I put my medication ?!?

-xo
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Orqyman



Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 98
Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will kill your firstborn if you put your request in the subject line.
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Gorunova



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 318
Location: Burnaby, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll record my opinions on the sturm und drang here for posterity, but don't take them too seriously. As a grad student in comp sci, I tend to be somewhat out of touch with reality, and I favor logical organization when it may not be practical or useful.

1) Multimedia out of ABA. It doesn't have an M in its name, so it's not a multimedia group.

2) Nags are good. Add nags about placing (or omiting) the ($1/$2) part and perhaps add a stronger suggested subject line format to the FAQ and nag. Good sorting is important, especially if you don't want to be shot by us animeusenet maintainers. Evil or Very Mad

3) I don't favor the creation of an abma.d, but I don't object to it either. I like the discussion stuff the way it is. I likely would not read abma.d unless I were posting a question.

4) Create a new specialty group for Ranma already! (Or maybe for all Rumiko product.)

5) Create another reposts group for old series like Dirty Pair, A-ko etc. Series (especially full-series reposts) of stuff older than 6 years should be directed there to reduce clutter in ABMA and ABMAR. I'd call it ABMA.classics or ABMA.old-series. This would be a place to stick the perennially-requested stuff that doesn't have its own specialty groups.

6) Perhaps create a group for brand new releases ("0-day" in warez terms). Not a strong idea; ABMA is probably good enough for this.

More to come if I think of anything.
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HollyBerries



Joined: 06 Apr 2002
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orqyman wrote:
I will kill your firstborn if you put your request in the subject line.


Well, I've already hashed over my thoughts in the groups themselves, but I will say this...

The reason people feel compelled to do something as annoying as posting requests in subject lines is because people feel their requests are being ignored because nobody sees them because they're mixed in with all the rest of the posts because there is no .d group Wink

HB
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afedaken



Joined: 06 Sep 2002
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HollyBerries wrote:
Orqyman wrote:
I will kill your firstborn if you put your request in the subject line.


Well, I've already hashed over my thoughts in the groups themselves, but I will say this...

The reason people feel compelled to do something as annoying as posting requests in subject lines is because people feel their requests are being ignored because nobody sees them because they're mixed in with all the rest of the posts because there is no .d group Wink

HB


How hard would it be to get a .d group? All of the other binaries groups seem to have them, and very very few of them are nearly as high traffic as ABA or ABMA...

I'd think that with the sheer volume of posts that the groups recieve, that some sort of coordination would be not just good, but nigh well essential.

Oh, and I'll quit putting my requests in the subject line. Didn't know it was such a bad idea. Thanks again to inc for the info!
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