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What the #&@^& is going on?
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Keikai



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 178
Location: Miami, FL

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neuralblastoma wrote:

How about posting all VCD/SVCD posts there and only there? That would take tonnes of traffic out of ABA/ABMA and then ABAV would be all the better for it.

That is a terribly intriguing thought. It's scary as its so revolutionary, but very tempting and also fits with traditional usenet rules. I say this not because I dislike SVCD, but simply because its a nice step towards a common goal.

I'd like to suggest that you create a poll on this topic, NB, as opposed to continuing it here as this thread is going to get very complex very fast and I hate to see this get lost.


Last edited by Keikai on Thu Mar 28, 2002 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vox Necros



Joined: 17 Feb 2002
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of moving all VCD, SVCD and similarly insanely large formats over to ABAV.

personally, i'd rather nobody ever post in those formats, as it just means that in addition to having to spend twice as long downloading it then i would if it were DIVX, i also have to spend the time necessary to convert it to DIVX before i burn it. for the vast majority of us who don't watch stuff with VCD-playing machines, downloading MPGs is a waste of time and a larger waste of newsgroup bandwith. especially as VCD-people can convert from MPG->Divx just as easily, and without killing the groups.
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AlienBoy



Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 70
Location: Middle Management

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vox Necros wrote:

personally, i'd rather nobody ever post in those formats


Now there's an idea I like! A 640X480 Divx file is still smaller than a VCD or a SVCD. That Divx can then be converted to VCD or SVCD if that's your thang. I personally prefer converting them to XVCD's and getting DVD quality output to my TV.
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xo
Site Admin


Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 466
Location: Los Angeles [comcast]

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keikai wrote:

Okay, in case it wasn't obvious, that last post was from me. Any chance you could set that xo, so people don't wonder who it the heck blathered all that (and so I can edit it)? Smile


I've updated the database so it's attributed to Keikai.

-xo
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earthdark



Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neuralblastoma wrote:

How about just posting to ABAV? It's a small group and an Ebichu post would help promote it as well as taking some of the traffic out of ABA/ABMA.

How about posting all VCD/SVCD posts there and only there? That would take tonnes of traffic out of ABA/ABMA and then ABAV would be all the better for it.


If you can convince dhluke and Pen3 :P
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dhluke
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will post whatever the fuck I want, whenever I want, and however I want it. You don't get a say on what the fuck I do....
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Not Pen3
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YEAH nigga
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Gorunova



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 318
Location: Burnaby, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say I agree with the sentiment that organization (perhaps even extending to coordinating the fansub groups) would be nice, but it's probably next to impossible.

Given its impossibility, I hereby predict (and in some cases postdict) that many ISPs will start dropping the highest-BW newsgroups to save on their bills. We're high on the list, so stock up on anime while you still can! Sad
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Gorunova



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 318
Location: Burnaby, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a related note, I believe I'm seeing a trend. Maybe I'm the last one to spot this, but I haven't seen anyone explicitly say it before:

The high traffic is a somewhat self-perpetuating thing that is squeezing out the dinos and replacing them with newbies.

1) Many of the long-time posters are on hiatus or posting less than usual because they feel the traffic is too high.

2) Many newbie posters post too much because they carry over habits from less-controlled binaries groups and don't recognize the logic of self-control.

3) Other newbies arrive and see mostly posts by the above old newbies, and follow suit.

4) Since the dinos who keep shouting and pointing at the FAQ don't seem to do a lot of posting themselves, they don't have much credibility as contributors in the eyes of the newbies, and will sometimes be ignored.

I could go on, but it looks to me like we're being assimilated. It seems like I see new, wet-behind-the-ears posters every day now, and it's starting to be weeks to months between posts by such notables as inc and Or[q]yman.
I can't even remember the last time I saw something from Kotatsu-Neko or RockLeech.
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Keikai



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 178
Location: Miami, FL

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhluke wrote:

I will post whatever the fuck I want, whenever I want, and however I want it. You don't get a say on what the fuck I do....

That goes without saying. People here are simply discussing potential resolutions to a problem. No one can force you to do anything in a public forum such as usenet, and certainly noone is claiming domain over the groups. While they can take certain indirect actions, they still cannot force your hand. However, examining the problem in an open forum like this allows for the integration of many points of view which hopefully will form a course of action that can be suggested and promoted on the groups. It is then a matter for the proponents to try to convince those with dissenting views of the course of action, who may see some wisdom in the arguments. If they do not, they can and will continue according to their own beliefs.

Remember, this is just discourse amongst people who are concerned for the groups, the community therein, and, of course, their own self-interest in their continued success. You are unlikely to see much of the fascism that some other groups have succumbed to in AB(M)A simply because many of the same people that are discussing these matters believe in as "hands-off" a policy as possible (in part due to the public nature of the fourms and also in part to the difficulty in enforcing policies). Unforunately, things have gotten a bit scary recently for some.

Personally, between my commericial servers and other off-group means, I do not have a problem with "keeping up". However, I am concerned for those fellow AB(M)Aers who are, particularly those who have brought so much to the groups in the past. There is something, however, that is more important that this, since one simply has to curtail their expectations in order to "keep up". I am concerned about the increased negative publicity the groups seem to be getting throughout usenet for abuse. Some people feel "the end is near" and I can't convincingly prove otherwise. So instead of arguing in my own interests, I try to be as objective as is possible and think of the group as a whole. Hopefully I accomplish that to some degree. This is not because I'm trying to be particularly noble, I simply see the continued health of the groups to be in my own best interests and also want to help the community within the groups because I like many of the people here.

Personally, I'd be much more interested in your arguments against any proposals made here than your declaration that you are immune to them. You are immune, so please just explain to folks why you feel they are wrong. Public debate need not be contentious and I have found that no matter how much many of us disagree, we tend to be very willing to be convinced of our own errors. You can be sure that while people may not agree with you, they will give your opinions proper consideration. I have seen many opinions change around here due to convincing arguments or simply a peek at another person's point of view.
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Melchior



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 190
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhluke wrote:

I will post whatever the fuck I want, whenever I want, and however I want it. You don't get a say on what the fuck I do....


You are 100% correct in that I cannot assert any authority over you. Usenet is an open place, and those of us here are not by any means "gods" or anything like that. What we *are* is members of AB(M)A who are concerned that it might become more difficult or impossible for us to download the anime that we so enjoy.

What we are trying to do here is find ways of making the best use out of a limited resource, because bandwidth is not unlimited and storage space on usenet servers is not unlimited and because the profits of our ISPs is more important to them than our ability to download anime.

Point number 1: benefits to the anime industry aside, *everything* that gets posted in AB(M)A is *illegal*. DVD-rips, music videos, fansubs, and even raw Japanese videos. It's illegal to post them here. There is no legal "grey area" with respect to this stuff. Period. The only reason we can get away with it is because (IMO, and those of many others) either the Japanese companies don't give a fuck about what gets posted here, or else because they recognize that online anime trading is what's driving the anime industry in North America.

Point 2 follows from point 1: because what's being posted here's illegal, your ISP holds the ultimate trump card: I'm wiling to bet that the agreement that you (or a family member) signed in order to get your broadband access asserts that you will not use it for any illegal purpose. Same deal goes for your ISP supporting these newsgroups: they could look at the groups and say "you know, not all that many of our customers use AB(M)A and a shitload of stuff gets posted there, and it's expensive to deal with all that stuff that gets posted, and to top it off it's all illegal stuff-- let's stop supporting this group". Bang-o, your ISP can cut off AB(M)A or your internet access. All that has to happen is that they decide that it's too much of a burden.

Point 3 follows from point 2: if we're not too much of a burden, your ISP won't drop the group. So, let's try to minimize our impact on our ISPs expenses. Lay low, in other words.

So if we want to ensure the continued presence of ABA/ABMA, what can we do to ensure that they aren't killed off?
-Minimize the volume on ABA/ABMA to only what's necessary. This involves getting all trades and single-episode reposts as well as too-soon full-series reposts into ABMAR, where they belong (usenet is perfect for distribution, but is amazingly wasteful for file-trading). It involves getting fansubbers not to release 4 versions of a particular episode, and then releasing v2 versions afterwards.
-Move big posts (eg VCD, SVCD) to another group to mitigate ABA/ABMA's responsibility for these posts. Think of ABAV as a tax-shelter... put the big attention-getters there and we can claim that ABA/ABMA has nothing to do with them. If this drops us off the top-15-newsgroups-by-bandwidth list, then that's a *great* thing for us, since we'll be of far less concern to news admins that some other groups... and ABAV won't have much to worry about since it'll still be lower-traffic that ABA/ABMA.
-Stop the posting of super-high-quality releases; 300MB for a single DivX episode is unreasonable. People who so desperately need perfect-quality anime really should just buy the damn DVDs. (note that this final point is *my opinion* and many may disagree with it-- whatever happened to the 100-150MB DivX files that were getting posted only a year ago?)

If we can do that, then (IMO) the continued existence of AB(M)A will be assured. I'd much rather see this group continue to exist in a slightly reduced-bandwidth form than for it to degrade into uselessness if my ISP were to dump it off their server.

I feel the need to restate a point: profits. Normally I don't care about the profits of private companies, but for AB(M)A my ISP's profits are rather important-- usenet is constantly growing, bandwidth requirements are getting bigger, storage requirements are getting bigger, servers are requiring more-powerful processors, etc, etc, etc. All those things cost money-- lots of money. If my ISP were having financial troubles and decided to take a look at its services and decide that the cost of providing alt.binaries.* usenet access was not worth the revenue derived from subscribers who would cancel their subscriptions if usenet access were cancelled, then they can dump usenet and afford to put more money into infrastructure upgrades, or into their own pockets. I hope that we can help our ISPs keep their usenet costs adequately-low so that when they question the value of usenet, they can safely decide that it *is* worth providing.

One common misconception that a lot of newcomers seem to hold is that "not enough people are sharing their stuff". This is simply not true. If everybody were to post more stuff to AB(M)A, then either everybody's ISP's gotta have some hella-big massive storage abilities, or your retention time's gonna be nonexistent. As things stand currently, a lot of the fansubbed files are posted to AB(M)A within a few days of when they're released, typically. So we get all the new stuff. As far as old stuff goes, it's slowly getting posted as posters find the bandwidth to do so. A lot of the oldtimers have slowed off (or altogether stopped) their postings because there's just *too much* getting posted currently, and it's impeding others' abilities to download the files.

These are my opinions, and it's why I'm concerned and it's what I think will need to happen in order to ensure the continued success/existence of AB(M)A. My opinions can be swayed by a good argument, though-- they aren't set in stone.

Later,
-Melchior (I think maybe once exams are over I'll start sending out anti-flood messages, anti-repost-in-ABA/ABMA messages, and things like that-- it should help NB in any cases where reporting someone to their ISP might be required).

Another note: a very good bit of text to read is "The Tragedy of the Commons" (a paper published in 1968), which basically says that if you have a limited resource that gets abused by the few or the many (due to lack of regulation, etc.), it'll dry up and everybody gets screwed. If you do a Google search for Tragedy of the Commons, you'll get tons of results. Here are some links that I pulled up from Google: http://dieoff.org/page95.htm, and "Tragedy of the Commons, Re-stated" (1997) http://dieoff.org/page109.htm.
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Neuralblastoma



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 109
Location: Ottawa Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhluke:

I asked you to come to here to take part in a discussion. That's what this is btw, a discussion about the _possibility_ of moving VCD/SVCD posts to ABAV. This is not in the FAQ yet and may never be.

Instead of taking part in the discussion you decided to tell everyone you can do whatever the fuck whatever you want.

Now I'm going to clear up a few things:

1. I am NOT threatening to report you for flooding. If I was I would simply say so. My comments on flooding also included me posing a question about removing the posting limit if not enough people cared about it. You see, I was being open minded about the situation.

2. This is also about managing and organizing the groups better. Breaking up the groups by format would be a good thing IMO. The movie groups do it (abm.divx, ab.vcd, ab.svcd) so why not the anime groups too? Also for the record VCD/SVCD are my favorite formats.

3. It's true that no "one" person owns a group. That being said, you can only do whatever the fuck you want so long as nobody reports you for FAQ violations. So far the only clear violation on your part has been flooding and I'm not reporting you. I've always been more concerned with off-topic and HIWIH posts.
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dhluke
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you guys doing but still -- you guys can't control anything-- All your suggestions go to a basket that no one looks in for most people... You guys even check how many of you are? You guys are trying to help "organize" something that can't be... Too many uses NGs and I bet more than 80% of them do not give a shit about what you guys do and I'm in the 80%... I do admire the time you guys spent on doing this but it's not worth it...

Also about reporting people who floods the NGs? haha That's just plain stupid if you ask me... Everyone knows what's been posted on the binaries... And someone is just waiting to kill them... And to me... You guys are helping that someone to find a reason to do it... I don't really care what you guys do as long as it doesn't involve me...
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Tobias Rieper



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 41
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2002 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhluke wrote:

You guys even check how many of you are? You guys are trying to help "organize" something that can't be... Too many uses NGs and I bet more than 80% of them do not give a shit about what you guys do and I'm in the 80%...


Not quite. With the data, we gathered with the "Mirror field test", I estimate a "organized"/"non organized" ratio of at least 1/1000. But I don't care about this, because they are just passive users. Worst thing they do is to make a wrong request, but since .PAR this has decreased too.

If you only count the users, who are posting content, you'll see that you're the 20% here.

With posting content, you have a higher responsibility than with just leeching or discussing, because you're actively rendering the face of the group.

Think about it...

T.Rieper
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(inc)



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 356
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2002 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm.... Just posted a reply in the groups that would have probably been better here -- I had no idea it had gotten so active.

Keikai -- bet I rate higher on nb's "softy" list then you, if just because I, errr..., *suggest* a lot more. ;-)

With regard to moving VCD/SVCD entirely to abav, just wanted to mention that, as I recall, when it was first starting to be used (summer of 2000?) it was generally suggested that posts be x-posted to aba or abma so that the new group would show activity and gain acceptance, the same process as was later followed with abmar. At the time the inference was that, like abmar, this x-posting would be transitory and would slow or halt as the group gained acceptance. So, while today abav still doesn’t seem to stand on its own, the original intent was that it should, though I’m not sure what earthdark said about that in its charter (all I remember is something about mpegs getting lost in the asf’s and rm’s being posted – things change ;-) ).

(inc)
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