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What the #&@^& is going on?
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Onakra



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 89
Location: Geldrop, Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 1:16 am    Post subject: What the #&@^& is going on? Reply with quote

Every since that KrayzieBeN from Dream-Anime started posting more than 800MB a day a lot of other people decided that that was a good thing as well. At least it seems that way...

I woke up this morning to find (IMO) a total chaos on the main groups. Far too much Dream-Anime again, Alien 9 1-3 repost, Ebichu 1/2 again, full SVCDs of Blue Gender and Battle Angel. If I had to guess I'd say that amounts to about 3GB in itself; and that's a very 'light' estimate.

Like many others I have a commercial server, but it isn't nice to find out that your regular ISP has dropped to 6h of retention for ABA/ABMA. Thank god I have (seen) all of that already, but I don't understand how someone who just got here would actually be happy with all this.

Heh. I always seem to be ranting here. But does anybody agree that this is a 'bad' thing, or is everybody more "I don't care (anymore)"? I know that there isn't much to be done about this. My request to KrayzieBeN was left unanswered, both the thread as well as the request...


Onakra
(Maybe I should give up as well?)
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AlienBoy



Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 70
Location: Middle Management

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know! I wake up every morning and usually grab about 4000-6000 new headers. This morning there were around 27000. At first I just figured someone had screwed up powerpost and set the line limit to 50 or something absurd like that. Trapped in the middle of all of that is LuvNuriko's FLCL post. I've been dying to see this series (I going to get the DVDs if they EVER decide on a release date) and now I have to scramble to grab the episodes.

My other big problem is that most of the stuff that is posted is readily available on DVD. I'm not a purist or anything (I've got my share of liscensed material on my computer) but please show some moderation. Was there even a request to prompt such a post?
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user



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"It's a madhouse... a madhouse!"

I think the massive flooding is a bad thing, just like using the groups for personal trading (remember that topic?) But what can you do if no one listens to the requests to slow down? Yes, I'm being pessimistic...

Maybe it's time to go "stealth"... Wink
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Firecaster



Joined: 24 Feb 2002
Posts: 43
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had noticed it this morning when I was on Easynews getting a few bit fills for Orphen episode 1... I realized a little late that I was downloading the RARs for the *third* episode. Now I feel bad for the fact that I'm posting Hoshi no Kirby 1. ^^;;;
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matt



Joined: 11 Feb 2002
Posts: 34
Location: Cleveland Ohayo

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd call that a spike.....
note these numbers are the sizes of downloaded uncompressed files

(woohoo finally get to show off my graph! Twisted Evil )
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user



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice graph! I didn't realize that the volume was so high in the groups. Now if only the stock market would perform like that... Smile
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Neuralblastoma



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 109
Location: Ottawa Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The solution to this is easy, but only if several people are willing to help by being more aggressive.

Too many regulars are far too kind when pointing out FAQ violations to people IMO.

In case it isn't blatentley obvious already, I am not a supporter of nice friendly warnings that sound more like mere suggestions.

I continue to threaten off-topic, DBZ, and HIWIH posters and report them when necessary. However, I am not willing to go after every single flooder. Not without help. Flooding happens far too often.

The FAQ says that the maximum upload per day is 300MB. Reporting people who go over this limit and getting their usenet access suspended is about as easy as taking a dump after bingeing on Mexican food and coffee.

The last person I went after was dbz|monkey a couple weeks ago. He ignored my posts in ABA so I gave him one more chance by emailing him before reporting him. We emailed each other back and forth a few times all in the span of about an hour. Finally he understood and agreed to stop his DBZ flood.

I like it when that happens. I would rather FAQ violators realize what they've done is wrong and follow the rules instead of having to report them. So far I've only had to report two people and the last one was several months ago.

Should we take a vote? There are few things to consider:

1. Should the posting limit per day be raised? I'm fine with 300MB but would have no objections to 400MB.

2. How many people care enough? There's no use in complaing if you're not going to do anything about it.

3. The more people who flood and are not told to stop lest they be reported makes that part of the FAQ(the posting limit part) increasingly meaningless. ISP's will be less likely to suspend so-and-so's usenet access if they see the group full of floods. FAQ's and charters only have merit to ISP's if the vast majority of its posters are following them. When anarchy overuns a group then the FAQ and charter become useless. ISP's no not care about groups that have decended into chaos and anarchy and may even stop carrying them.

4. If not enough people care then the posting limit should be removed from the FAQ. This way the FAQ is current and reamins valid in the eyes of ISP's when an abuse report must be made.

5. If enough people do care then start ripping on as many flooders as you can see. Everyone. If several people(the more the better) all go after each and every flooder informing them of thier FAQ violations then that may be enough to make them stop. Reporting may not be necessary. If reporting IS necessary then all the message ID's from the regulars that could be gathered in the abuse report along with the link to the FAQ will be all the more effective in getting the flooder(s) usenet access suspended. FAQ plus support from the group regulars.

Lastly, I don't mean to sound as though there aren't enough regulars giving advice and pointing newbies to the FAQ(Melchior is King of the vertical spammer rehabilitation program). I just think that too many regulars are too soft much of the time.

No offence intended. My only intent with this post is to lay everything out as I see it and find out how the rest of you feel.

OK, I guess that's all I have to say about this. At least for now anyway.

On a side note, Rogers has increased thier retention. ABA has a message count of 75 419 and ABMA at 77 714.
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Gorunova



Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 318
Location: Burnaby, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think people already know my opinion on this. I've been saying our traffic is too high for over a year now. Evil or Very Mad

I think that enforcing the rules set out in the FAQ is a good thing. I appreciate seeing people stepping on V-spam, hentai and off-topic stuff, and I do so myself when I see it and nobody has already beat me to it.

Many rogue posters are newbies fresh from those "other" binaries groups, who aren't cagey enough to lurk for a while and learn the ropes. Many of them do not read messages aimed at them and thus will not learn easily, but some do and that makes it worthwhile.

Maybe if we start ganging up on them more often it'll help.

As for going further and actually emailing and reporting the really bad abusers, I think that's great but I have no idea how to do it. How about a tutorial, NB?

I think 350MB per day is reasonable. It's half a movie, or two average-size episodes. I personally would prefer to see it lower (200MB), but that's me. I'd also like to see the elimination of duplicate posts and too-soon reposts, but the only way I can see that working is with full cooperation of all posters, and obviously we don't have that.
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Sjafira



Joined: 15 Mar 2002
Posts: 10
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do share the agreement that the traffic in the group is a bit too high lately. Too much is never good.. moderate is okay Smile
With the amount of posts right now I can see that the retention on my ISP server is getting pretty low... and it is not handy for someone who has a small HD because I don't have room for anymore newspro database.
There are people who has download limit from their ISP (like me ^_^).
A lot of double posting lately.. StarStorm also crossposted Anime-galaxy posting to ABMAR. I don't see why. I thought that ABMAR was intended for repost requests....
I also do agree with the fact that why do we have FAQ & guidelines if it is not being followed? I am just a small time poster who occasionally post and try to help people with their requests. Still I try my best to stick to the guidelines.
I vote for increasing the amount of post to 350Mb like Gurunova said. I think it is reasonable.
I do care for what is happening in the group. I love anime and I love sharing it with others who has the same appreciation like I do. I have made new friends and I would hate to see the group deteriorating and that the regular posters/group member leaving.
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earthdark



Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Offtopic:
You know.... I was having thoughts on doing ebichu svcds but apparently, someone just reposted 1-8... not sure if it's a good idea now.
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Neuralblastoma



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 109
Location: Ottawa Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorunova wrote:


As for going further and actually emailing and reporting the really bad abusers, I think that's great but I have no idea how to do it. How about a tutorial, NB?


I wish I'd saved one of the reports I made.

Well, basically here's what you do:

Grab the necessary info from the offending person's posts:
Message ID's ie.
Message-ID: <oSvo8.35649$v%.9820513@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>

ISP abuse email address ie.
abuse@rr.com

If it's a binary flood you're reporting only include one message ID from each title or episode posted. The message ID is included so the poster's ISP can easily find the posts you're reporting.

Include a link a to the FAQ. That is a must.

Explain what the offending has poster has done and why it's wrong. When I reported HIWIH posters I made sure to write a detailed description of what that is and why it is frowned upon.

That's all that's necessary but I do a little more to ensure victory. I will include message ID's from myself and other regulars asking the offending poster to stop what they're doing. I will also include message ID's from the offending poster if they replied to our requests saying they don't care about rules. If they ignored all requests that's just as good. This shows the offending poster's ISP that an effort has already been made by the group regulars to make them stop what they were doing. I believe this helps a great deal. It shows that more than just one person cares and I think that's why my two reports were successful.
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Neuralblastoma



Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 109
Location: Ottawa Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthdark wrote:

Offtopic:
You know.... I was having thoughts on doing ebichu svcds but apparently, someone just reposted 1-8... not sure if it's a good idea now.


How about just posting to ABAV? It's a small group and an Ebichu post would help promote it as well as taking some of the traffic out of ABA/ABMA.

How about posting all VCD/SVCD posts there and only there? That would take tonnes of traffic out of ABA/ABMA and then ABAV would be all the better for it.
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Highspar



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 27
Location: London, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh man, you guys can't actually be serious? Organize postings? stop dupilcate postings? Stop floods? Limit the series repost to 6 months?

Now that I've opened myself up for the flames to begin, let me say, hell I'd love it, but I'm a realist. There is no real way for you to run a tight ship, and still expect the list of people that post to grow.

Your first problem will be with the fansub groups. They don't get along. How many versions of Full Metal Panic, Kanon, or Organagi (sp?) Teacher are out there? like 3 a piece maybe 4. Until someone finds away to stop the competition for series (how many different ways can you translate an episode?!?!) there are going to be 1 gig of traffic, approximately, for each episode. And that's just the posting of it.

With the current situation with ISPs they are looking to cut Bandwith consumption at all costs. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they just stopped having usenet anymore, or at least the binaries. And, don't try to give the argument that the binaries are good. Personally I like them, but they are causing too much traffic for ISPs to handle anymore.

oh man, I'm ranting, and I still have more to go... not good.

The first step of the ISPs will be to impose caps on your dl (which many have done). Mine's 3 gigs over 3 days, which caused me much agravation, until I heard about a friend's ISP cutting it back to 1 gig a month! A month! needless to say, I was suddenly quite happy with 3 gigs over 3 days.

now to switch gears back to the Fansubbers. For those of you actually reading this, I'm sorry, I'm really scatterbrained and am just typing as the rant is flowing.

The point of Divx was to make files small. but, in the last few months, I've noticed files are getting, bigger, and bigger. Not making my days of dling any better. Where I use to be able to grab 6 episodes in a day, now I'm down to 4. A low quality file still tells the story of anime as long as you can read the text, and see the animation. Hell at 200% image size it's not that splotcy to watch.

Then there is the whole SVCD/VCD question. I'd personally say BAN THESE! if you want an SVCD make it yourself! it takes like 20 mins to read the text on how to do it, then you can just let your computer make it at night for you. In the time that they posted a 2 CD version of some movie, they could have posted a divx version and probably 3 or 4 other episodes of something else.

<sigh> ok, my rant is done; and I'm realizing I've just typed more for this than I have since first year at University. I'm not looking forward to seeing how many spelling/grammer errors I've made.
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Keikai



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 178
Location: Miami, FL

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have actually been giving this general subject allot of thought and was planning on a poll regarding caps, so I'm glad to see NB brought it up in his response to Onakra's comments.

I'll likely say more on this later, after reading more responses and thinking it over some, but here are some initial thoughts. I think it would be better to set limitations on posting behavior rather than capping. I'd rather set rules about reposting, repacking, requests, creating alternate versions (i.e. VCD of a DivX), etc. We have the most important tool to manage this, which is the logging of what has been posted. The issue of multiple fansub group posting is far more complex than the above suggestions, so I'll leave that out for now.

This system I'm suggesting might not be enough, and we might need to more strictly enforce caps, but I'd like to see that as a last resort. I'd rather cut back 2G of reposts and let a good poster or two putting up new material go over the "cap" than keep them both at 300M. It seems, at least to me, that that benefits the group more. I'm certainly not anti-repost, but they are completely out of hand.

Also, it's probably a good idea to actually limit Dragonball material to the dragonball group just like Sailor Moon material is limited to the sailor moon group. I'm uncertain of how well spread the DB group is, but I think we might need to make a clean break and soon, as at least in this case, suggesting that people post there instead is NOT going to work. Similarly, I'm not anti-DB, I just am looking for opportunities for sensible bandwidth cutting to the main groups.

Quote:
I am not a supporter of nice friendly warnings that sound more like mere suggestions.

*chuckle* I think this was at least partially aimed at me, although I take it to heart and offer the following disclaimer. While it's obvious I'm a softer touch than NB, I'll put whatever wording into the FAQ that the regulars seem to want. I just thought I'd point that out now, if it was in question at all. The FAQ is the voice of the group.

Regarding Highspar's comments, he may very well be right that this level of control is impossible, and I have always argued that too much control will be bad (just see the ebook groups for confirmation of this), but I admit things are getting way out of hand and I think we really need to try.

As for his anti-SVCD comments, I feel there are too many regulars who like SVCD to make that a good limitation. However, I would like to see a good tutorial on AVI->(S)VCD conversion either in the FAQ or linked to from the FAQ. Why do this with doom9 and vcdhelp around? Well doom9 seems to be lacking a bit in the vobsub and linux/mac department when it comes to this topic. NB and I worked on this some back a few months ago, so maybe we can come up with something.

Lastly, I don't think there is a solution to this that will make everyone happy. This is obvious to many, but I want to mention it for those who think that "their way" hurts noone. Just from reading the responses here and mixing in many previous discussions, one can see that while we all respect each other's opinions (a very important aspect of our group) we don't always agree. So the key is to find something that only hurts everyone a little in the hopes to help the group allot.
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Keikai



Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 178
Location: Miami, FL

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, in case it wasn't obvious, that last post was from me. Any chance you could set that xo, so people don't wonder who it the heck blathered all that (and so I can edit it)? Smile That was the first time I wasn't auto-logged-in, so I didn't notice.
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